Stanislau Shushkevich: Lukashenka has always been a mere rogue

The first leader of the independent Belarus Stanislau Shushkevich speaks frankly about half-wits and scoundrels, Miasnikovich’s career and KGB contacts, Komsomol workers and political emigrants.

Stanislau Shushkevich was never ashamed to admit his own faults. And the first question for the man whose role is historical for Belarus is whether do you have a feeling that you didn’t have enough political stiffness so that to keep Lukashenka out of the power that he has now?

- I haven’t had any thoughts that I made a mistake in it. If under political stiffness you imply political illegality, than I could have abused the Constitution in due time; but it would have been out of law. And I didn’t make any of such steps, which I am proud of. Legally I haven’t missed anything.

One of my repeated mistakes is that I looked positively upon many people, mere rogues as well. Because I have accustomed to the University environment where it is difficult to pretend to be smart. In this environment you can’t step out and say that you are very good at math. You have to prove it. And in the political and human mix-up many people managed to present themselves in such a way I believed them to be absolutely positive. And I have believed some of them for a rather long time. What concerns Lukashenka, I’ve never had any delusions about him, as he has everything written all over his face. And he behaved as poseur and mere rogue. Though in relation to some other people I did have wrong attitude.

- Do you feel yourself humble and insulted when you are supposed to receive a pension in 3200 Belarusan rubles (less than half a dollar), when your book is prohibited to be published in Belarus, when Lukashenka tells all over the country about your meetings where you look indecently?

- The thing is that there can be humiliation from the person, but there cannot be humiliation from the scoundrel. You cannot be humiliated from the side of a boor and an uneducated person. And I can say with confidence that I haven’t been humiliated, insulted or hurt by any of decent people that I respect. I haven’t lost any of my old friends. And it is far more important for me than the conduct of some half-educated person with a petty mind. I don’t attach any attention to that.

“I said that the minister is a real dolt”

- I could have refused from my current scanty pension and change to receiving a social pension. But I won’t do that, as today I can earn much more than that.

There was a moment when I was put on the list of people who were not permitted to travel abroad. And during some time I went to the countries of the EU through Russia. But still, I went and earned my living by reading lectures; I earned by my own labor.

It was an interesting story with my status of the person who was not permitted to travel abroad. First I travelled by a circuitous route, and then I got a police certificate where it was stated that I am involved in a criminal case. I took long time figuring out what is this case about. Finally, I basically had to state in the reception room of the Minister of Justice that the minister is a real dolt if anyone in his ministry cannot say what court has investigated my case. In the long term it was in the Ministry of Internal Affairs where I was given a certificate that I was in the list of the people not permitted to travel abroad because of some computer mistake. It was what is called a “well-thought carelessness”.

- At the beginning of Belarusan sovereignty during the first visit of our delegation to the US today’s prime-minister Miasnikovich and the head of the Federation of Trade Unions Kozik were together with you. It was that very visit Lukashenka has recently said that about that “only Shushkevich looked spick-and-span, while all the others were sick of it”. How truthful are these words?

- It all comes from an old interview given by Julia Buraukina where she describes this situation. We really had a serious delay with a flight to the US due to the weather conditions. Of course, people who have spent seven more hours in the plane in addition to the long flight were not looking spick-and-span. That is where all these talks come from. But I don’t even want to answer all these odd memories. I don’t have any necessity for that.

- It is hard to believe that the current Prime Minister Miasnikovich was together with you as a member of the Belarusan delegation when the fateful convention in Viskuli was signed. What do you think, what is the secret of its long political life?

- Miasnikovich has always been working hard. I have always been saying that in due time Kebich was surrounded by talented people; the people, who know how to work. But together with it they were former Komsomol workers who were taught to indulge the party and at the same time they knew how to decide their own questions very well. There are other examples of such people in Belarus, like Fiaduta. And Miasnikovich is a professional bureaucrat. When the workers went on demonstration only Miasnikovich agreed to meet people together with me; everyone else was afraid that they will be torn to pieces there. He has no principles and he settles all the problems in his own favor. Such people can work with any regime – communist, fascist, Lukashenka’s, any regime you name. He is a real Soviet bureaucrat who can serve absolutely any power. And whatever turn it takes, he can always explain that this is the right thing.

“I really had a lot of contacts with the KGB”

- I cannot but ask about one interesting fact from your life. In your book that appeared recently you recollect the period when you met Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk and you were doubtful about his involvement in the assassination of John Kennedy. Do you remember your first reaction when you got to know that the man whom you gave orders as a worker at the factory is accused of murder of the American president?

- I remember this moment perfectly. And this news was fully unexpected for me.

Of course, I couldn’t know all the details, but I formed an opinion about Oswald during the time he worked with me. I well remember that he had difficulties with conjugation. And I can’t believe that the man with such intelligence level can be involved in this political intrigue. Yes, Oswald could be one of the figures involved in that murder; but he surely is not the lone killer.

- But do you agree that the fact of your acquaintance with Oswald looks exceptionally striking in your rich biography?

- Yes, sure. But too many speculations appeared around this story. A book was published in Israel where it was written that I am a KGB worker and was directed to the factory where I worked with Oswald on purpose. Though in my life I did have lots of contacts with the KGB, as the KGB workers provided security to lots of our works in the university when I was a physicist.

“The populism worked out and lots of bastards came out”

- Being the first leader of the independent Belarus, could you imagine that after 20 years we will dream of freedom and independence again?

- I haven’t thought about it, but I believed that everything would improve and turn for the better. I had a good understanding of Poland at that time; I worked there at the Soviet times. I saw what processes were going on there, I knew all the main participants in these processes. We expected that Belarus will take the similar path. I haven’t any notion why everything turned out like that there and I couldn’t know beforehand that illegality will rule in our country. I haven’t even supposed that hypocrisy in our country will be no less than in the Soviet times.

- Does Belarus have full independence today and was it independent in the beginning of the 90s of the last century?

- One can argue what is full independence. But I want to highlight one important detail there. At the time when Poland and Lithuania acquired independence they had leaders recognized by the whole society. And in Belarus, despite the best starting position for development, Soviet populism worked out and half-wits like Lukashenka came out. No one took him seriously, as there were lots of clever and educated people around Lukashenka who thought that he would only become the force that would lead them to power. And it turned out quite different.

“My friends have become lifelong dictators”

- Today we have an unhealthy competitiveness about the nationalist problem. Different groups of intellectuals cannot agree on absolutely simple questions, like three grammar systems of Belarusan language. Unfortunately, it is the result of the physical dismissal of the Belarusan nation during the reign of the tsar and during the communist reign, too. We didn’t have enough courage and strength to adopt the politics of the Baltic States, Poland and Czech Republic. Though I believe that we still can adjust their experience to the new realities; we have people that know what should be done. At the same time we have uneducated people who prefer to work using the old soviet methods. This is how Lukashenka works today together with all the scoundrels that surround him.

- Many people say that Belarus is a Soviet Union in miniature. What do you think, is Belarus going to have the same poor fate the USSR had, i.e. factual disappearance as a subject of international politics?

- I cannot be a prophet. But this is typical not only of Belarus. The Commonwealth of Independent States at the post-Soviet area has basically turned into the commonwealth of dictatorial regimes. Georgia falls out of this pattern a little; but Moldova corresponds to it well. And what is most important is that Russia has taken this way long time ago. What concerns Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan - I can say that lifelong dictators are sitting there, many of whom I personally met.

“Lukashenka is the chief corruptor in the country”

- When you speak about the militant ignorance of the current authority, you mean not only Lukashenka, don’t you? Can the established system in Belarus function without him?

- I do mean the President in the first place. But his team has enough people who advocate militant ignorance. Though it is important to mention that not all the people around Lukashenka fall under this characteristic – some people simply are in the service of the militant ignorance.

- Will the current system of power be viable without Lukashenka?

- Yes, quite. It is much better than that of the Soviet times and allows many top-ranking officials have their own profitable business. Almost all Lukashenka’s servants are involved in such business. And he appears to be the largest corruptor in the country when he claims that he receives presents that cost several thousand euros!

- Are you afraid that the representatives of younger generations feel nostalgic for the USSR?

- It is the result of the long-term propaganda that presents everything perversely. And there is no surprise about that under the monopoly on the state Media. I used to be a Soviet type and believed that ideals are fine and there are mean people among the executives and the leaders. And today there are lots of such people in the system; there is the whole class of the people of that kind. It is very beneficial for them when the communist ideals are working, as there is no competitiveness then. Earlier there was a phrase – “to have a good understanding of the party politics”. Today this phrase has changed a little bit – “to have a good understanding of the president politics”.

“I was offered full provision till my dying days”

- Why there are so many Soviet-type people even among the opponents of the current regime?

- Because there are people who cannot reach something while they adhere to their principles. These people are not intellectuals. They have education, knowledge, but they have no inner culture. We still use old Soviet means of accommodation.

- What feelings do you have about the current state of the Belarusan opposition?

- I am convinced that opposition today needs renovation and disposal of the past vices.

- Not so long ago you were rather reserved about the Memorandum signed in Vilnius and that was the reason why some people accused you of the insufficient respect to some political forces. And do these forces deserve your respect?

- I was in Poland when I heard that I had to come to Vilnius where BNR Rada was gathering. I don’t want to criticize those people as they are honest and conscientious. They have written this long memorandum. I just said that we need to accept a shorter one. And I believe that Andrei Sannikau has made a mistake when he didn’t sign this document. I called him afterwards; but he is a diplomat and he was confused by this long text, too. That is all.

- You certainly had and still have possibilities to leave Belarus and live with dignity. Why haven’t you done that and why don’t you do that now? And what is your attitude to those who chooses voluntary or forced emigration?

- I just can’t move to some other place except Belarus. Even in the Soviet times I never left the country for more than one month. It is my motherland and I love it. I had an official proposal for financial support till the end of my life from a European country where any of the Belarusans haven’t ever received political asylum. I was grateful; but I refused.

I have diverse attitude towards those who leave the country. I fully justify those who risked when being there. I am happy for those young people who couldn’t find the job appropriate for their potential there and left. And I have a feeling that many of them will be ready to return to Belarus in the future. But personally I am not going to leave the country.