Lech Wałęsa: We Need Solidarity to Stop Putin

What’s been happening in Eastern Europe right now is a test of solidarity, believes the former Polish President, who used to be the leader of the independent trade union Solidarność.

Polish journalists working for New Eastern Europe talked with Lech Wałęsa, Polish politician and charismatic leader of the Solidarity trade union, Nobel Peace Prize Winner, and President of Poland (1990-1995).

- This year in Poland, we are celebrating the 25th anniversary of the Round Table talks and the first semi-free elections, which took place on June 4th 1989. These events initiated a peaceful transformation that spread throughout the region of Central and Eastern Europe. Your contribution to this process is unquestionable. We are curious, however, what is your attitude towards celebrating these anniversaries?

I am not interested in that at all. What I am interested in is today and tomorrow; not the past. Neither anniversaries nor reflections on what happened in the past interest me. I look to the future. What happened in the past is now history, the future is important.

Are you then saying that you don’t like making a balance sheet of what happened in the past?

No, I don’t. What is there to make a balance sheet of? I leave this to others. I have no memory in regards to the past. I never reflect on it. I focus on solving tasks. Of course, sometimes I am forced to look back, mainly by journalists, historians and prosecutors. Then I need to reflect. But only when forced, do I look back. Never of my own accord.

Wouldn't you agree, however, that it is often the historical context that hinders us from moving forward?

The problem lies somewhere else. Until the end of the 20th century, there were national interests and here in Poland we were fighting communism. Now, the borders are no longer here. But we Poles have to remember that our historical experience is very different than those of other nations. We have always been between Russia and Germany. For centuries we had to keep up our guard, trying to determine from which side we may get attacked. This constant state of readiness made us develop something that other nations don’t have – an ability to foresee things. Why did we win the battle against communism? The whole world did not believe that we could. We won because we had this ability to foresee. We knew that there was a chance. It was not a big chance, but it existed. The world did not see it. Nobody was listening to us then.

We even foresaw the Second World War. We foresaw it coming and warned the world. Only the world did not want to listen. Nobody wanted to lose their lives for Gdańsk. For them, it was a local problem. Only when the war reached the West did they remember what we had said earlier. Now, think about the end of the Second World War. Again, we told the world that Stalin would cheat us all. And what? They broke diplomatic relations with our legal government. They accepted Stalin and we had to fight for the next 50 years.

Even now we have this ability to foresee, even if we are not aware of it. We disagree because we know that what is happening is not right and that this is not what we were fighting for. That’s not what the EU should look like. That’s not what our behaviour towards Ukraine should be. We know it because we can see it and we can feel it. But we don’t have enough power. To put it another way – they are listening to us but not completely. And here I keep repeating - solidarity! Who is supposed to do this if not Barack Obama? If not NATO? And what are they doing? God only knows. Again, here we are talking, but they aren’t listening fully.

Do you see a solution to what is happening in Eastern Europe right now?

What’s been happening in Eastern Europe right now is a test of solidarity. The more solidarity we have, the easier it will be for us to solve this problem. Solidarity is nothing more than asking others to help you lift up a burden when you can’t do it yourself. But we don’t need the same kind of solidarity as we needed before, when we were working in the opposition. Back then, there was communism and the Soviet Union. These were the burdens we were trying to lift up. And we had to organise ourselves.

Today we need to organise ourselves in regards to Russia and Ukraine. That is why there needs to be a group which should come together and reflect on what proposals can be formulated in regards to what Russia is doing now. Such a group would, first and foremost, calculate how many resources are needed for such a task. But first, each potential member of the group should be asked the question: “Do you approve of what Putin is doing?”

Then the second question should be asked: “What can you do to call Putin to task?” Clearly, not everybody needs to do the same. Not everybody should stop trading with Russia or stop buying Russian products, etc. But everybody should work together to address these needs. There has to be mutual support.

All in all, we need to get organised to get the necessary resources and decide together how much we need in order to stop Russia and then suggest to every country how they can help. And it is this way, and solely in this way, that we can win in the 21st century.

From Ukraine’s experience, we have learned that Putin can also offer quite a bit…

This is just my proposal. Of course it should be perfected and then it could be implemented –be it either by NATO or the US. This is the only way we can win against Putin. Otherwise, we won’t.

That’s also a reason why I did not participate in the last protests at the Maidan in Kyiv. From the very beginning, I knew that these demonstrations would not end well. Of course, I was not very loud about it, but I did say that it wasn’t the right way. At the end of the day, Viktor Yanukovych was a democratically-elected president. I also said that by supporting the protests, we would provoke Russia. That’s why I did not go to Kyiv. I knew it was a lost cause. And I don’t like to participate in lost causes.

Can we win with Putin?

Of course. But there needs to be solidarity. We have to make a decision, state by state, what we can do – both officially and unofficially – to stop him. But there has to be solidarity. There has to be a group that will calculate the costs and collect the resources.

Does this mean that the soft diplomacy, which both the EU and President Obama are carrying out, will not change the world?

No, the question here is different: how many bumps on the head will we still suffer from; how much blood will we lose; how many more changes do we need before this world is different? And here I am wondering whether the moment is right now or not yet.

When you are thinking about the region’s future, are you more of an optimist or pessimist?

I’m only thinking about the bumps that we may still get; and whether they will reach Poland. How much more blood will we lose unnecessarily before we take the right road? We have already taken the right direction. We are building this new state – Europe. We have abolished borders. But when it comes to certain needs, this is not enough. Today, we need solidarity. We need solidarity to stop Putin and to show the entire world that this is the way to solve problems in the 21st century. We can’t do the same thing that Putin is doing. Under no circumstances.

To take up such a challenge, we often need an authority that would inspire us and lead us. Do young people today have such an authority figure?

There is no such thing as one authority. Different people become authorities for different people. And in different areas. There is an authority figure in chess, an authority figure in football, in religion…

I was thinking more about politics. I ask this question because you were once such an authority figure.

Again, we need to understand the times in which we live. Today, we live in between eras. One era has ended. Communism has fallen and, with it, the divisions it created. Now we are making this new state called Europe. There is globalization. For all this, we need new programmes and new people. Different people then we have had so far.

Is there somebody who is an authority for you?

I am just like others. I am searching. I know that I am 70 years old, and that’s why I am searching among those who are younger than me.

On many occasions you have said that the time when you were president was very difficult for you…

It was the most difficult time in my life! And I did not want to be president. People don’t believe me that I did not want it, but I didn’t. Only when I saw what had happened and what the situation was, I had no choice. I had to.

Do you still have this feeling that you are not well understood by others?

Yes and no. Children need to attend the first, second and third grade. But there are individuals who skip grades. But as a whole, we need to attend all grades. The same can be said about democracy. This is something that has to be experienced. We now live in a period after years of secret agents, wars and treason. Polish society is as it is. And it needs time: two, three or even five generations before everything evens out. This is how we should look at things. When I started being politically involved, I was politically ready. I was self-taught, for sure, but I had my ideas and I implemented them. Of course I had many different flaws. But I knew what I was doing and where I was heading. I only did not know what dangers were lurking around me and what price I would pay.

Was it a high price?

Again, yes and no. I made a very big career. That’s what everyone thinks and it’s true. But I also had to pay for it. I wasn’t there when my children were growing up. I missed this period entirely. And all the many unpleasant things I still encounter. Think about these oafs who attack me. They have no clue about anything. But nothing in life is free. When there is a plus, there is also a minus.

If you were to do everything again, would you do exactly the same?

Yes. Everything the same. I have done everything I had planned. Everything was a success. I only planned too little. I planned to destroy communism. That was my success and masterpiece. But later, when the time came to start building, I did not have ideas. I am good at destroying, but I would also have liked to have been good at building.  

Or maybe it was too much for one person?

That is true indeed. It was too much. On the other hand, once you have made that first step, you need to keep going.

As you mentioned, everything has a price. Along with the transformation, there was a lot of social disappointment and a very difficult road for many people. How did this affect you?

What choice did I have? Communism fell and the working class had to start building capitalism. I knew what capitalism would look like in the beginning. I knew that in the beginning, the capitalists would start murky businesses and cheat.

When I made a decision that we would build capitalism I could not pay attention to all the shortcomings of its early stage. Now, however, I am coming to the conclusion that capitalism developed so much that now it needs to be tamed and disciplined. That’s why I’ve decided to join the trade unionists again. I may not agree with them in all areas, but I am doing this to discipline capitalism.

How do you feel now when you go for a walk in Gdańsk - the city where it all started?

Gdańsk has changed so much that I no longer leave my house in the evenings, as I wouldn’t find my way back. So much has changed in such a short time. The city has developed. Everything is becoming more and more beautiful. We would have never thought that there would be so much progress in such a short period of time. And not only in Gdańsk, but throughout Poland. From this perspective, we have come very far. This is something we could have never achieved if there was still communism.

Do you feel at home in today’s Poland?

Of course, although I obviously resent those who play dishonest games. They know that something is not true, that something is a lie, and yet they believe it. They want to make careers this way. This is something I hate. All these disappointments and grudges, however, I understand very well. The workers at the shipyard did not fight to close down the shipyard. When we finished the strike, I told them: you brought me on your shoulders, but one day you may be throwing stones at me. I told them back then that the shipyard would be closed once our victory is complete. They fought and they had to lose their daily bread. I told them that very gently. I couldn’t be more direct, otherwise nobody would want to fight.

I was very much aware of things when I became involved. I knew what the future would bring. I knew where these fights would lead us. The only thing I did not do was to prepare a plan for building. Here, I spent too little time. Had I spent more, I would have been able to do it; and better than they are now doing.

The interview was originally published on New Eastern Europe